City Council says no to consolidation plan
The Pensacola City Council this afternoon, meeting as its Committee of the Whole, voted no on the proposed consolidation plan. The vote was 5-4. Council members Mack, DeWeese, Townsend, Hall, and Johnson voted not to approve the plan; Mayor Wiggins and Council members Jerralds, Cannada-Wynn, and Pratt voted in the minority to support it.
Our thanks to Councilwomen Diane Mack and Maren DeWeese for identifying some of the serious concerns in the proposed consolidation plan, and for refusing to endorse the document.
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Derek, Would love to know the grand economic plan that you, Mack and Deweese appear to have to grow the city of Pensacola’s income stream to pay down the debt. The current form of goverment in the county will make it extremely difficult if not impossible for the city’s economic condition to improve. While the document is not perfect, not one of those that voted in the opposition appeared to have an alternative. Saying no without an alternative seems awful short sighted. The debt you claim will be left after consolidation exists now and will remain here. The difference is that under consolidation and an accountable executive branch that has direct appointment for the communities economic development arm, there is a least a shot at overall growth. Thinking the Mayor of Pensacola can have that impact over 5 single member county commissioners is just not reasonable. I hope the legislative delegation uses better judgement.
The plan is just so, so, so bad. It really shouldn’t even be a decision. We can find ways to address our debt issues. You don’t need an immediate alternative if you’re being asked to give all of your possessions away to your neighbours and then try to still pay your bills (which is basically what this plan asks the City to do) … you just say no.
As far as the legislative delegation’s judgment, apparently we don’t have to guess because your ally Scott Remington says he has two of the members “under control.” After the recent meeting of “the gang” with Rep. Ford at the Irish Politician’s Club, he’s probably “under control” also. We’ll have to wait until next quarter to see if any checks went across the table.
Derek,
I’ve always been a fan of this site and thanks for all you do to keep it running. However I must say, of late your posts regarding consolidation have been taking on a more and more desperate, conspiritorial and slanderous tone.
As for some of the objections, the plan DOES provide a solution to something nobody from the City has had the political courage to address… $85 million in unfunded pension liability.
You say “we can find ways to address our debt issues”. Well, what are they?
Interest rates are at historic lows yet the city is taking on more debt not reducing it. So we have a shrinking population, falling wages, growing debt, net job losses but let’s just keep on pulling out the charge card.
For those who ask what’s in it for city residents I would answer simplicty, fairness, accountability and most importently solvency.
We just celebrated our 450th Anniversary as “America’s First Settlement”. Sure sounds better than “America’s 109th MSA”. After 450 years maybe its finally time to come together as a community and face up to our shared obligations and responsibilities to each other and to those who will come after us.
Nah, why bother? Being cynical is so much easier.
Clarry,
We can sell ESP to ECUA without consolidation dude. It was a great idea but we dont need the rest of it.
My point is that IF the process is allowed to contine these types of issues will see the broader light of day and the conversation will grow. Otherwise we simply continue to do what we do so well, study an issue and then put off any wider debate or attempt at resolution of the very real issues that face this community.
If we always look to those who are vested in the status quo for answers we will continue to get what we got last night… support for the staus quo.
Clarry: I appreciate the compliment, however backhanded it may have been.
The plan doesn’t provide a “solution” for the pension liability. It simply shifts the liability to a new agency, which likely won’t be able to afford to pay it without raising utility rates.
Let me be clear… I am not opposed to the concept of consolidation. Quite the opposite, in fact. I would love a strong City with a population of 300K. I am however opposed to a drive-by robbery of City residents. We’re asked to give away all of our assets, including the Airport, the Port of Pensacola, all of our property and their improvements, parks, vehicles, etc. What are we getting in return? Quite frankly I am disappointed that as a City representative on the ECCSC you did not fight harder to protect the interests of City residents… although, I’m not sure it would have made much of a difference… email records are starting to make it look like the die was cast before the ECCSC really ever got off the ground.
You can be FOR consolidation yet AGAINST this specific plan (which is a very, very, very bad deal for City residents).
ESP revenues have been parallelling the unfunded pension liability service fairly well of late. The new utilities authority with the combined resources of ECUA and ESP and a county-wide customer base generates ample revenues after expenses and reserves to cover the obligation.
City residents will still have an ownership stake in all the assets they currently own. But, under consolidation those county residents who use city assets like the airport and landfill without any obligation to support it through their taxes will stop getting something (the assurance that the airport, ESP, landfill, port, etc. keep operating) for nothing.
One example, GE ships a lot of wind turbines out of the port yet their plant (and I’m willing to wager the majority of their work force) pay no city taxes.
Clarry:
I should clarify that I think the VAST majority of those on the ECCSC, including yourself, acted for the most part in good faith, and put in a lot of time on this, and that should be commended.
Unfortunately, the process was crippled from the start.
John,
That should not be a problem since Remington appears to have Evers and Peaden “under control”. And Bell has Ford “under control”. Isnt that the type of backroom politics you say wouldnt be a concern under consolidated government. Lunches at IPC, campaign checks, same old good ole boy politics. Just less $$ for you to spend if the citizens reduce that number of snouts in the trouth (sp?).
You are as much a part of the problem as O’Sullivan or Bullock. Everyone watch the arm twisting that happens between now and Thursday. Hall (ie Jack Noble Jr.) will make a motion to reconsider (MARK MY WORDS)Between now and Thursady I would hate to be Hall or Johnson
The most pathethic excuse for a mayor, was classic. “I dont approve of this document, but I will vote yes so people dont quit coming up with ideas”
TRANSLATION: My donors expect me to support it or no money for me. So heck, Im voting to give away the assets of the city and burden citizens with the debt. Vote for me for Strong Mayor, Ill close your city.
Mr. Peacock,
I am a bit confused here. I recollect that you were a huge proponent of Strong Mayor. A Strong Mayor that is the only guiding light, beacon of hope and change to “grow the city of Pensacola’s income stream”.
Seems to me that those that questioned the CRC process and lack of a final report were dealt some heavy rhetorical comments.
Derek has done some excellent investigative work ob this subject and points out to me at least that a vote for Consolidation is based on half-baked recommendations and ill formed policies!!!
You state: “Saying no without an alternative seems awful short sighted.”
Hum!! Sounds to me like your defending an agenda!!!!!!!!
Why does the charter set up the “general counsel” to have unfettered legal veto authority over the consolidated government??
Derek, I applaud your willingness to have an open and honest debate on this and other subjects. You and I can honestly discuss, debate and potentially disagree. Those that post on your site and use fake names while throwing out rumors and innuendo have little credibility. I welcome debate with anyone willing to stand behind their comments. To question others motives while hiding behind a phony name is somewhat suspect. There are a lot of people in this community that work tirelessly for the betterment of the community. Some I agree with politically and some I don’t. I appreciate their efforts and try not to question their motives. I did support the Strong Mayor effort for the same reason I support consolidation. Accountability. Let’s look at the current situation. The city of Pensacola has significant debt problems. The only way to address that is through increased taxes, lowering services or grow the tax base. On a larger scale, life has changed dramatically in the past 18 months or so. An argument can be made that over the next couple years we are going to see tax and fee increases at all levels of government (national, state, and local) in order to pay for “the sins of the past” and our growing debt obligations. On a local level, we must be more efficient and unified in our approach. What are the chances that the city which has a relatively small geographic mass can significantly grow their revenue or tax base? Is the mayor going to have significant sway over 5 single member district commissioners? Doubtful. Consolidation unifies resources. The confusion apparently comes from the debt issue. The constitution prevents existing liabilities from being spread to other folks. So ad valorem taxes cannot be raised on those outside the existing city limits to pay for the existing debt. This is fair. The “city” assets that you refer to will benefit the combined entitiy as will the existing county assets. The consolidation document ensures that ESP revenue will continue to pay unfunded pension liabilities. While ad valorem taxes can’t be raised there is nothing that prevents revenue obtained through an increase in overall business activity from being used to pay down debt. Can a consolidated entity with an accountable executive branch and focused economic development activities more effectively grow our revenue base. I think so. The combined entitiy has every incentive to reduce all existing debt. Admittedly I feel strongly that this is the way to go. However I will admit it is just one way to go. I welcome other suggestions but haven’t heard any. To my knowledge those that disagree with the consolidation document haven’t offered any solutions to the existing problems. Stating this is a “bad” document and that the city “loses” without offering a better way is a misrepresentation. No one “loses” anything. Both existing city and county residents gain the benefit of all assets and a more focused and accountable government. At the end of the day, the voters should decide. I stated early on in the strong mayor debate that it wasn’t about what I wanted but the collective “we” should decide. I feel the same way now. This form of government has never been voted on in this county. I believe that it will pass for the same reason it overwhelming passed in the city. Accountability.
Derek, I tried emailing you a document but the address on your site comes back as undeliverable. If you would like the document please send me an email at johnpeacock@cox.net and I will send it to you. Thanks
mr. Peacock,
Same story you sang on North Escambia.com whenyou tried to rationalize pushing the city pensions off on the rest of county residents/
Please comment on your associates Bell and Remington contolling legistlators. Do you support back room deals and good ole boy politics.
Cant wait to di into the rest of the emails. It shows the true colors of those pushing consolidation.
Sing Accountability…while doing unaccountible back room deals
Newshound, please identify yourself. Stand behind your comments. Be as open and as forthcoming as you urge others to do. Why is my opinion a “story” but yours is legitimate. Have an honest debate. There are legitimate issues to discuss on both sides. I don’t condone “back room deals”. That is an unfortunate part of politics today. The “true colors” of those pushing consolidation that I am aware of is that of people who truly believe it is in the best interest of our community. Until proven otherwise I choose to believe that just as I don’t believe people who are opposed are evil people. I live in the county. Why would I want to “push” the city debt on myself. Take the emotion out of your comments and offer solutions or Escambia County and the entire Pensacola community will continue to lead the state in areas that are not real favorable. The current system is tried and proven to be ineffective. If you don’t like the current offer then please offer a replacment. Change is inevitable. It can either be random change or we can attempt to control our own destiny. I proudly choose the latter!
mr. Peacock,
I wish I could post as myself but I fear for my employment. I work for a pro-consolidation employer and my outspoken comments would impact my living.
Sorry. Should I stop having an opinion becasue I fear for my job?
yes or no? If you say yes I will not post anymore. But that will show that you truly dont want debate but to beat down the opposition.
So Mr. Peacock, Yes or no
I would have to agree with Newshound on not publishing his name. I also would fear retalation not from an employer as I am retired but from other sources.
Newshound, If that is truly the reason then I totally understand. That is very unfortunate that you feel that way. My livlihood could also be significantly effected by the stands I take. I choose to be true to my beliefs and let the chips fall where they may. I believe most people will respect my opinion although they may or may not agree. So far that has been true. That being said you have to make your own decision there for you and your family and I respect that. I would welcome a one on one confidential debate about the issues anytime you would like. All that being said my only request of you then would be to stop the personal attacks. Stop accusing and speculating about peoples motivations. Let’s stick to a debate on the facts. If we can do that, we all win regardles. So Mr/Mrs. Newshound…Yes or No??
John,
My concern is based on the emails Derek posted there is no confidential with you people. Many of the emails he posts are “confidential” one on one emails that are immediately forwarded to Bulluck, Crawford, Remington and Bell so that the beat downs may begin.
I cant afford you ruining my future for your political gains.
Newshound, 1) you didn’t answer the question 2) my name isn’t mentioned in any of those emails 3) “You people” is pretty darn derogatory 4) I have no political ambitions. My offer of a confidential meeting between you and I is just that. My entire profession is filled with confidential meetings. I have had plenty of confidential discussions about this and other political topics. Until you have proof otherwise, please stop accusing me of things that are untrue and again stick to the facts. If you choose not to do that, then are conversations can end with this post. Your call
I’ll take you up on the offer after Thursday. When Hall makes a Jack Noblesesque motion to reconsider and Johnson and Hall pull a flip-flop and bow at the good ole boy alter after the beat downs they are getting this week.
After Thursday, if it stays defeated, i will meet with you. When the flip flops occur and it passes, then to much risk that you will let my employer know and ill be fired.
Remind us again John
What do city taxpayers gain from consolidation? We know at one point we were donating our cash cow esp .
Will city taxpayers get to remove the extra city tax rate and just pay the county rate? If not, do county taxpayers get their tax bill increased with the addition of the city rate?
Good luck to anyone not “under control” going to the backroom meetings of the IPC. If the IPC ringleaders support this, I’m very concerned. We’ve seen their retaliation over a tree ordinance.
Mike,
For ESP the City would get also dispose of the unfunded pension obligation.
There would be one county wide tax rate and then a second rate for urban service districts – the current City of Pensacola would be one (of many) such districts.
For the second tax you get enhanced law enforcement and fire services (the fire dept shows up in five minutes with a ladder truck rather than in 20 with a bag of marshmallows). In other words, you get what you pay for and you pay for what you get (something that county residents living between the city limits and 9 mile road currently don’t do).
Judge bell said last night: no reduction in city resident taxes, loss of all assets and keep certain debt. Not a good deal unless you live in the County.
City could always sell ESP if they wanted to (they dont right now). why consolidate to sell ESP. If its worth 90 million today it will be owrth 90 million in the future
To sell ESP you need a buyer.
What are the chances that a county wide elected ECUA board would approve the purchase?
If, on the other hand, you sell to a for profit company then the city has to pre-refund all the revenue bond issues as they would loose their tax exempt muni bond status.
Ohhh Grasshopper, come let Shifu show you the ways of the force.
County wide elected board jump at the chance. See grasshopper, 80+% of ESP customers are county not city.
That deal is no problem based on Sorrell emails.
Same old “Offer a replacement”? Like offer a counter plan for the valuable waterfront property ?
Exactly how does a citizen or citizen group do that?
Mr. Cummings has offered comments on the pension debacle for years warning council and staff what would happen, that the liability would grow out of control.
It did.
The council and city manager and finance director ignored him and pretended he didn’t know what he was talking about.
What has the commish or council ever recommended looking at consolidating?
For this council and especially our well trained lap dog mayor, one would have to propose consolidation without one single staffer losing a job.
Voting for this flawed plan is NOT the answer. Once this plan is approved, it’s done. No revisions. As the plan reads now, the city residents would continue to be taxed double. County residents would not pay ANY increases but would receive increased services. The major difference is that the City gives away all its money making assets like ESP gas company and the airport. The new government will then take all the city’s money and assets, and give city residents reduced services IF ANY. IF ANY, because we would only have a minority vote on the new government and will get the same goose-egg they give us now with only one vote. Ask the County what they did with $20 million paid in property taxes by City residents to the county? Where is it? Not in the City limits that’s where. The county should be required to show each district where it’s tax dollars are spent.
I’m proud to be a city resident and I don’t mind paying extra tax to live here with our increased services. You couldn’t pay me to live in the county. The County does nothing for the tax dollars the city pays in each year and provides NO services in return. The County can’t even understand their own bidding process (and they are full time paid commissioners, making three times the salary of a part time paid city council member). No way do I want those crooked idiots managing the City of Pensacola where I live. Just take a look at the County. Does it even look like they have a litter ordinance or code enforcement department? It’s dirty, tacky and parts of it look like a third world country. Why on earth would we want to consolidate with them?
James,
Where on earth are you coming up with this stuff? You obviously haven’t read the document or don’t understand it.
I’m a different James but agree completely with the James who posted at 14:09. This is a very bad plan and city residents would be foolish to support it. I live in the city & I value the services that I receive. I don’t want the dumbed down services that the county provides. I want a paid, professional fire department that responds within minutes. I want a police force that responds within minutes & provides many added services. I enjoy living close enough to walk to several parks. I appreciate the programs that the parks & recreation department provides. Any council member who voted for the consolidation report will not have my vote — and I live in councilmember Johnson’s district. I hope someone steps up & runs against him.
Other James,
Johnson voted against it. Makes one wonder what else you may be wrong about, huh?
Clarry,
Your sarcasm is unbecoming. You worked hard on the plan. Your service IS appreciated. It was just too rushed. Jacksonville (the exmaple so often touted) took 2 years to put together their plan. The committee’s agressive timeline in my opinion is the biggest hurdle that did not result in a good document.
Jeff,
Yes the timeline was aggressive. I will say it kept us focused. We were fortunate in being able to build on the work that Jacksonville and the Charter Review commission did.
I’m doubtful that an extra year would have led to any substantive differences in the final product. Passing off all the city’s debts to all residents of the new municipality is a non-starter. Bringing the Constitutional Officers under charter government is as well.
If consolidation passes or fails isn’t nearly as important to me than that the citizens of the county get the opportunity to develop awareness of and make an informed decision on the issue. The BOCC and City Council have chosen – by narrow majorities in each case – to oppose giving them that opportunity.
Oh, and sorry for the sarcasm.
NP, anyone who knows me knows srcash is my middle name. The City did not stop the process. According to the emails Derek uncovered, the legislature is “under control”. They will put it to a vote aside from any actions by the BCC or City Council.
It is the Councils role to evaluate the plan purely from the City’s perspective and vote approve or disapprove. They did. They disapprove.
Dont worry Clarry, it will come to the ballot becuase Evers, Peaden, Murzin and Ford are “under control”
Theres my unbecoming sarcasm…now we are even. :)
James,
Your Councilman (Johnson) was brave and stepped up to the consolidation machine.
He is doing a great job. You should not only vote for him you should THANK him.
Well Clarry — I guess according to you if I was provided inaccurate information on who voted for/against then I’m wrong on everything. I stand corrected. My councilmember did the right thing & voted against this extremely flawed document. I am going to place a call to him to relay my thanks and to apologize for making the error.
I must add that your attitude is only more evidence that this is a bad deal for the city.
James,
Not saying your wrong on everything. Just that is often important to verify for yourself what you may have heard but not seen. Sorry if the attitude came off a little strong.
Maybe under a consolidated government the Christmas decorations downtown would come down before they become targets for Mardi Gras beads next year.
(Ok, now that was sarcastic. Sorry Jeff.)
Now we have found something we can agree on
Jeff,
Re. Xmas decorations, I just heard – and you’re gonna love this….
DIB didn’t renew lease on storage facility for the decorations. That’s why they’re still up. However (and here’s where it gets really good) they’re gonna store them at the Port. Who says we don’t know how to manage our assets? That’s right folks, now we’re using our waterfront as both a bathroom and an attic.
Oh well. At least it didn’t have to go out to bid.
From city tax rate to urban district tax rate- whoopee I see the advantages already- renaming the tax rate.
I thought that one of the city council members mentioned that the ESP cash cow was not enough to pay for the pension liability. And if esp funds which currently go into the general fund are siphoned to satisfy the pension black hole, then the city is still short funds.
So remind me again what exactly city residents gain and what exactly do city residents get from paying the full tax rate paid by the county residents. To hear the commish talk city residents are the illegitimate child even though we pay full county taxes .
You can keep your filthy helter skelter county zoning with the biggest catfish pond in the Southeast and commissioners approving multi million dollar payouts who don’t understand a basic bid process and we’ll send marshmellows.
Actually your post points out a couple of things that would happen under consolidation:
Zoning would be unified.
If ESP isn’t covering pension by itself then that becomes a win for city.
Commission/Council wouldn’t be approving any more bids.
City residents will receive actual services for their taxes rather than having them siphoned off to subsidize county residents South of 9 Mile and in Cantonment.
Heck we may as well throw in some grahm crackers and Hershey bars as well. The smore the merrier.
Jeff, I’m glad to know that you are working hard to be Charlie’s long term replacement. Just say no without offering an alternative. Neither You, Mike, James x2, Derek or anyone else has offered any comments on how the city which is limited geographically (you were confused by that term earlier, that means size) can control enough economic development to increase the tax base. The services in the city are being cut now, revenue is going down now, therefore more services will be cut. I have never seen any performance measures that shows how the sacred extra services the city residents pay for stack up against state and national averages. Without a unification of economic development efforts coupled with an accountable form of government I believe we are all destined for mediocrity. Proofs in the pudding. The current system doesn’t work. To think that 17-18% of the county population (city residents) are going to be able to have a significant impact on changing the mindset and functionality of a 5 single member district system is absurd. I do believe that there will be efficiencies that could result in tax savings for everyone. There is not enough hard and fast evidence to prove that so we didn’t want to mislead anyone. I can almost assure you of one thing, without a change in how we do business, all of our taxes and fees will go higher. The current system in the county allows for 3 folks that you can’t vote for the ability to raise your taxes. Seems un-American to me. The same reasons the new charter passed in the city is the exact same reason it needs to pass in the entire community.
See John, thats why that poor guy doesnt want to share his name. The Charlie comment, really? is that your true feeling? You doubt my committment to the city because I think your consolidation proposal is a bad deal for the city? Really?
I believe that many things can help Pensacola (the City) grow.
I choose to give strong mayor a chance.
I choose to have 4 votes for my mayor and council and one for commissioner than the pitence of representation you proposed in the consolidation document.
I choose my current city services over “promises” from 25 unelected people
I choose to maintain our city assets and not give them away to the County
I choose to not leave our police and fireman out in the cold without contracts
I choose to believe that the chamber, PEDC, City and County can work together
I choose to not pay the sme taxes for hoped on same services
I choose Pensacola, not the greater consolidated govt of Century, Escambia, and oh yeah Pensacola.
We can debate issues all day. But as far as im concerned the Charlie comment was over the line.
Jeff, Wow, YOU have a line?!?!? Didn’t know that given all the low blows and body shots you have delivered on many Wednesday nights at Global. But if you feel I crossed that line with you, I certainly apologize. I don’t doubt your commitment or anyone else’s however I have taken many shots regarding mine. I wouldn’t have commented that way if it wasn’t you just because of our past banter!
I agree with some of your “choices” above but some like the city, chamber, county and PEDC working together…….haven’t seen much of that so far.
Mr. DeWeese — Thank you for doing what’s right for the city. Mr. Peacock does not live in the city & thus his perspective is suspect from my point of view. I’m sure he will attack me now but I live, work, learn & play in Pensacola & I don’t want what the county offers. You are much better at the verbal judo. All I know is that I don’t want to buy what he & the consolidation commission is selling. Thanks for speaking for many of us who don’t have much of a voice.
If the document could still be revised, then why did Bell immediately disband the committee when he had until July to continue working on it.
Based on Bell’s actions, how can we possibly buy that claim?